A terrible tragedy…..another God delusion!

And all unbelievers hate in the name of their god-less-ness.

How's that for an equally blanket statment?

I dont hate you.Try Using Logic,and just dont listen to what people of various religions say after such incidents.Thats what I do when somebody denigrates my beliefs.Because life is too short to go around hating.

As a matter of respect for those killed and injured in the shooting in Arizona, and for their grieving families, please stop using this tragedy as a tool in your personal arsenal to spread even more division and decisiveness. We have seen where just such things have taken us. And yet, here I see yet another article using this tragedy and these people to fan the flames of division and negative rhetoric among people.

It seems some of us have learned nothing from this tragedy except to spin it for own selfish uses.

Please people...we have to stop.

Well now that you have proven that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to Christianity.....go back and STUDY a little an maybe we will see some logic in your stand.

First God does not "jerk the strings of our lives" if he did we would be no more than slaves. Second you take a "leap of faith" and God proves himself to you. There is plenty of evidence in changed lives, healed sick, of millions of people if you would simply look, and none of the explained by science, or reason, but the FACT remains that hey have happened.

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Even Jesus agrees, with enough faith you can prove anything to yourself.

TryUsinglogic,its in the faith.Without it there is no hope for understanding."Seek me and you shall find me." Thats it.Ive waxed and waned over the years,but bottom line,I know God exists.Sometimes I question just how loving and benevolent though.I honestly hope that helps.

If understanding comes only through faith, why are there so many faiths?

XNihiloZero,Im not here to argue religion.I dont believe in it.Pick up a KJV Bible and read.If you dont understand it, get help.Or not..........Thats my advice.

I can only do my part and that is to offer what I did.The rest is up to God and you.I have no illusions of people not being compassionate,kind,caring and decent with,or without God.Theres lots of good and lots of bad.As a Christian I am supposed to offer love without distinction.It aint easy all the time,but like anything else,I have to try because I know God exists and that is what he wants of us.Your path might be different,I hope its rewarding.

because I know God exists and that is what he wants of us.

Sorry, but you don't "know" if god exists or what he wants. You just think or believe you do. Big difference.

I dont believe in it.Pick up a KJV Bible and read.

And yet, some religions are based around the KJV of the bible.

Without it there is no hope for understanding.

Without logic and rational thinking, there is no hope for understanding. There, fixed it for you.

if he did we would be no more than slaves

Well, yeah. A lot of people are slaves to their beliefs.

and none of the explained by science, or reason, but the FACT remains that hey have happened.

If it's not explained by science or reason, then it didn't really happen. People only think it did because they probably didn't know any better. Otherwise, such "happenings" is merely subjective and anecdotal at best. But that's hardly 'fact.'

And all unbelievers hate in the name of their god-less-ness.

How's that for an equally blanket statment?

It's less accurate.

Really Gordy,dont presume to tell me what I know.Dont agree?Just say so.I wont bug you or come knocking on your door with literature.You read what I had to say,were done if you want it that way.No pressure or hard sell here.I didnt ask you to come here and read what I said.But Im glad you did.Now I can rest easy knowing Ive done my part.Just like TryUsingLogic,the rest is up to God and you.

Really Gordy,dont presume to tell me what I know.

Then don't presume you know god. Because any such claim to that effect is utter BS and you know it!

I wont bug you or come knocking on your door with literature.

Good! You wouldn't be the first to do so however.

No pressure or hard sell here.

No logic either.

But Im glad you did.

Happy to oblige.

Now I can rest easy knowing Ive done my part.

You mean proselytize?

Just like TryUsingLogic,the rest is up to God and you.

That's nice, except there is no god.

Gordy,whose doing the hard sell now? And smile when you say proseltyze!Im done and Ill prove it.Ignore.

Gordy,whose doing the hard sell now?

You tell me!

And smile when you say proseltyze

Why? When I hear it, it usually makes me frown.

Im done and Ill prove it.Ignore.

I guess you didn't like what I was "selling?" Thanks for stopping by.

gordy327

Sorry, but you don't "know" if god exists or what he wants. You just think or believe you do. Big difference.

Really, since you know everything there is to know about everything why haven't you healed people that medical science says can't be healed. You seem to be one that thinks that anything you don't personally know means that it does not exist or is not worth knowing.

Without logic and rational thinking, there is no hope for understanding. There, fixed it for you.

And I guess your logic is the only logic that counts.

Well, yeah. A lot of people are slaves to their beliefs.

Those who know the Lord find that they have been freed from slavery. But then that is one thing that one who had never accepted the Lord cannot understand.

If it's not explained by science or reason, then it didn't really happen. People only think it did because they probably didn't know any better. Otherwise, such "happenings" is merely subjective and anecdotal at best. But that's hardly 'fact.'

LOL...proof of the above statement, you are enslaved and locked into if man can not explain it then it didn't happen, totally enslaved to man’s feeble attempts to explain that which they can not understand.

Really, since you know everything there is to know about everything why haven't you healed people that medical science says can't be healed.

Wow, way to mince words and try to put them in my mouth, especially since I never said any such thing.

You seem to be one that thinks that anything you don't personally know means that it does not exist or is not worth knowing.

Not at all. I said no one personally "knows" god.

And I guess your logic is the only logic that counts.

As opposed to what? Belief or Faith? Besides, I never said that either. Yor really like to misinterpret or misquote everything I say, don't you?

Those who know the Lord find that they have been freed from slavery.

Mentally enslaved is perhaps the better term.

proof of the above statement, you are enslaved and locked into if man can not explain it then it didn't happen, totally enslaved to man’s feeble attempts to explain that which they can not understand.

And when you don't understand or can't explain something, you go with the "god did it" answer. Sorry, but that's not an explanation for anything. It's a failure to explain.

As a non-believer I can always look with an open mind

But you are not looking with an open mind. No one can, you are starting with the presupposition that there is no God. That is not an open mind. We can change our views but we can never approach anything with an what we claim is an open mind. I was where you are and now am a believer, I did not come to this with an "open mind". I know this will make no sense to you but at one in my life and my searching I came with an open heart.

Our forefathers established a foundation to keep religious faith out of government while providing all of us the freedom to believe what we wish! One religion forcing itself on others through government was not their concept of a good plan.

This is perhaps the one argument that is the most annoying. Yes our founders did establish freedom of religion, they did not want a nation built upon a theocracy. However why is it acceptable for you to force your humanistic morals, ethics and political ideals on me, yet when I stand up for what I believe I am forcing my belief upon you? Democracy in this country is based on the freedom for each person to stand up for what they believe is right and support those ingovernment that agree with them. You excersize your rights and I will excersize mine.

Our forefathers established a foundation to keep religious faith out of government while providing all of us the freedom to believe what we wish! One religion forcing itself on others through government was not their concept of a good plan. They separated Public and Government life. It appears you don't agree with them?

I'm fine with there not being an official religion in this country and that every person has the freedom to believe or not believe in what they wish, that was the main crux of the Founding Fathers' intent with the First Amendment.

The problem I have is when atheists and secular humanists embark on a crusade to scrub any mention of God or religion out of public life when in reality it has little bearing on how any of us live. Please explain to me how IN GOD WE TRUST on money violates your rights. Please explain to me why a cross on public land offends you. "I don't like it" is not a good enough reason to remove something that an overwhelming number of Americans are fine with.

are starting with the presupposition that there is no God. That is not an open mind.

On the contrary, that's a logical conclusion based on the lack of evidence to prove there is a god. Having an open mind would mean foermulating a conclusion or reconsidering a position based on the available evidence. As there is nnone to support the existance of god, the conclusion can be made that there is no god.

We can change our views but we can never approach anything with an what we claim is an open mind.

So you think it's better to be close minded? That's a rather narrow view of things.

However why is it acceptable for you to force your humanistic morals, ethics and political ideals on me, yet when I stand up for what I believe I am forcing my belief upon you?

How are humanistic attributes being forced on you? You can believe whatever you want, but this country and its government and laws are based on and must follow, the Constitution.

Democracy in this country is based on the freedom for each person to stand up for what they believe is right and support those ingovernment that agree with them. You excersize your rights and I will excersize mine.

Actually, our country is a constitutional republic, where we all must follow and are protected and limited by Constitutional guidelines.

The problem I have is when atheists and secular humanists embark on a crusade to scrub any mention of God or religion out of public life when in reality it has little bearing on how any of us live.

Oh please. We don't care what you believe or how you want to believe. We just want to uphold constitutional integrity by maintaining the separation between church and state, as the Founding Fathers intended. God or religion doesn't belong in the government or in our laws, as they are secular based.

Please explain to me how IN GOD WE TRUST on money violates your rights.

It's mandated by federal law, which makes it an endorsement of a religion or a religious concept over non-religion and therefore violates the 1st Amendment.

Please explain to me why a cross on public land offends you. "I don't like it" is not a good enough reason to remove something that an overwhelming number of Americans are fine with.

How about: It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL (and the court agrees)! Is that a good enough reason for you?

The problem I have is when atheists and secular humanists embark on a crusade to scrub any mention of God or religion out of public life when in reality it has little bearing on how any of us live. Please explain to me how IN GOD WE TRUST on money violates your rights. Please explain to me why a cross on public land offends you. "I don't like it" is not a good enough reason to remove something that an overwhelming number of Americans are fine with.

Wait... if they have little bearing on how any of us live... why are you against removing them?

Either they have meaning, and that's why they're there, and we can discuss that - or they have no value and are so negligible as to be thrown away without a care.

Personally - knowing that they were put there with an intent - "In God We Trust" added as a motto to 'fight the Commies' alongside the manipulated Pledge (which was conveniently done in the decades following the writer's death) - I know that they have value, and that is what makes them unconstitutional.

You know Gordy, it would be nice to see you be truthful at least once on here.

Oh please. We don't care what you believe or how you want to believe. We just want to uphold constitutional integrity by maintaining the separation between church and state, as the Founding Fathers intended. God or religion doesn't belong in the government or in our laws, as they are secular based.

You only want to “uphold” the parts of the Constitutional integrity that you agree with, and want to ignore the parts you don’t like, like the government not interfering with the freedom that the constitution gives to Christians to follow the tenants of their religion without interference by the Government.

and want to ignore the parts you don’t like, like the government not interfering with the freedom that the constitution gives to Christians to follow the tenants of their religion without interference by the Government.

What part of the Constitution gives Christians the freedom to put their religion into federal law?

According to people like Gordy Christians should not even vote if they are going to vote their personal beliefs. No religion should not be forced into federal law, however federal law should not be allowed to dictate how a Christian should vote, behave, or live their lives.

"because Islam is in line to steal their thunder!"Is that what you would prefer TryUsingLogic?No judgement,just curious.

You know Gordy, it would be nice to see you be truthful at least once on here.

Point out where I have been anything but!

You only want to “uphold” the parts of the Constitutional integrity that you agree with, and want to ignore the parts you don’t like, like the government not interfering with the freedom that the constitution gives to Christians to follow the tenants of their religion without interference by the Government.

If you have ever been paying attention to any of my posts, here and on other threads, you will know that your entire statement is complete and utter BS and akin to outright lying. FYI, I have always advocated maintaining constitutional integrity. It seems you want the government to validate your religion for you.

According to people like Gordy Christians should not even vote if they are going to vote their personal beliefs.

Purposely misinterpreting or attributing things to me without credence is neither persuasive nor honest and only serves to show your lack of credibility and honesty.

No religion should not be forced into federal law, however federal law should not be allowed to dictate how a Christian should vote, behave, or live their lives.

What federal law dictates how you should believe, vote, ect? By all means, cite one! Or is paranoid rhetorical tripe all you have?

Just askin TryUsingLogic.Lots of people dont see it quite your way.Lots of people feel that in this country Christianity has been made to take a back seat to Islam as far as public acceptance and acceptance in schools.Or at least thats the way things are headed.I feel that the acceptance of Islam in many ways is misleading because of the stated mission Islam has of world domination and this by force when appropriate,meaning a sizeable population in a given area.I dont think there is such a thing as "secular government" they can say whatever they want,but as the people are,so goes the government in one way or another.In whatever capacity or form,Id rather see this a Christian nation that an Islamic one.Sharia law doesnt sit well with me on any level.

I hear ya TryUsingLogic.I hope youre right about the 80%.But I just dont think there can be a truly secular government.It always winds up reflecting the values of the predominant religion of the people.All Im saying,is that in light of my theory,I would by far and away prefer in this case for our government to reflect the values of Christianity.To be sure,Baptist at that.Im Baptist : )

I do understand TryUsingLogic.I think youre missing the larger point.No matter how much you would or I would or wouldnt want an entirely secular government,its not going to happen that way.No matter what people say,the taking down of ten commandments inscriptions on court buildings or Christmas trees,or whatever,the frightening thing,with these references gone,every speck of Christianity removed from all government,the more things are opened up to an insurgencey of a foreign religion.I dont want to argue,and Im not trying to hurt your feelings,but we dont live in such a world as you seem to want.Its just not ever going to be that way.Some time ago,I went through a very similar battle of feelings as you seem to be.I spent years mulling it over.Bottom line?I couldnt beat em so I joined em.Believe me or not,after I realized this,truly,in my heart,all I had to do was pick a side.Like I said,"seek me and you will find me".Faith took over after that.I can only tell you what I know,what Ive thought about and the conclusions Ive come to.Im not an educated man,but Im far from stupid or foolish,and my loyalties dont come or go easily.Im also far from alone in my experiences TryUsingLogic.I think its fair to say your frame of mind is by and large the minority here or anywhere.Regardless of the logic you posess and apply to your conundrome,there must come a point when you consider the possibility that the rest of the world might just be on to something.

Christians should understand that by promoting religious ideas into government they set the precedence for other religions to do the same. Our forefathers [of differing religions] saw that problem and did a great job in forming our constitution and democratic republic. They were on to something that those with religious ferver seem to forget.

Our forefathers did develop a nation built upon a republic and the Constitution. A document that establishes freedom of religion. They established it to prevent a theocracy and to prevent the government from interfering in religion, as to avoid the problems that were present in England due to the undo influence of the government upon the church. Every one who cotes promotes ideas, they vote for the person they feel best represents their ideas, morals and ethics. To ask a person to forget that when they go to the polls is like asking some one not to breath.

When we consider the founders of this nation we often forget that there were far more framers to this nation that the "popular" ones that are constantly quoted and mis-quoted over and over again. We have to think of the first Supreme Court Justices, the first Congress, the first Governors, the first State legislatures. Of which the majority were God believing men. It was not uncommon when a new law was introduced to be asked where it was supported in scripture, it was not uncommon to start every meeting with prayer, it was not uncommon to promote freedom for every one and for the government to keep its nose out of the business of churches. Many of the original Supreme Court Justices would be insulted by the cases brought before the courts today, such as abortion, and removing prayer from school, taking "In God we trust" (which I know was added much later) from our currency. They recognized freedom of religion not freedom from religion. We have twisted and corrupted the intent and values this nation was founded upon to a point it is unrecognizable to what it use to be. All in the name of the minority and political correctness.

I'm not sure where you are coming from? You seem confused.

The point being made is first off this nation was founded on principles that included God, more specifically the God of the bible, the Christian God. This is a fact and is present through out the history of this nation. Second to even imagine that an elected official can leave what they believe at the door is unreasonable. They never did it in the past and we cannot do that in the future, it is one thing that makes us who we are. As a Christian I can no more separate what makes me a Christian that is my humble attempts to walk as Christ walked form how I vote or live as I can remove my own heart and still live. Those that we elect to office have the same character as least I would hope they do, no matter what they believe.

You are the personification of everything that makes theocracies a reality.

Here is a leap in logic Evil Knevil would be proud of. There is nothing in my statements that even come close to advocating a theocracy.

Oddly, all religions seem truly alarmed by real freedom, which requires separation of church and government.

I'm sorry the scriptures are not written in a way to tell you that.

Another flawed logic. "all" religions? Christianity is based on freedom, for without freedom it would not exist. There is nothing in Scripture that allows even the most dedicated believer top force anyone to follow Christ. Christ is all about choice, Christ is all about love for your fellow man, and without choice or freedom there can be no love. If you do not think there is any Scripture to support this then you need to read it again. Freedom is an important building stone of the life of a Christian.

The problem with all religions is they can't be reasonable and use logic

Another flawed argument, using the term "all". It is through reason and logic that I became a Christian. It always amazes me when those that do not agree with Christianity, always assume that those that do have thrown out all ability to reason. If you truly understood what it means to be a Christian you would not make such a broad and untruthful and insulting statement. I have never and hopefully never will claim that anyone who does not believe as I do is unreasonable or lacks the ability to use logic.

Hiram,one of us is a man after the others own heart.You are clearly the better at explaining things though.

SenoirTokarev-

Thank You.

TryUsingLogic-

I can respect your opinion, however it would be more affective without the insults. When we resort to such behavior it only shows our lack of understanding of the other person point of view.

Hiram,one of us is a man after the others own heart.You are clearly the better at explaining things though.

Hiram is a really good guy, I don't agree with a thing he says but I admire his patience, his perseverance and his equanimity.

Wheel-

Thank yoo for the compliment.

Tryusinglogic-

I have the utmost respect for Jefferson. He was a man of character and not afraid to voice his opinion. He stood by what he believed, and, was a positive influence on the founding of this nation. I do not agree with many of his views on God, that does not lessen his contributions to America. There are many people I respect and disagree with, respect has nothing to do with agreement of what anyone believes, it has more to do with individuals character and how they represent themselves and their ideals.

I can question boldy all beliefs, but you can't question yours?

This is a good question; I can in all honesty say that I spent a good portion of my life questioning belief. For 47 years I was am Atheist, I had no use for the Bible or God, I spent a great deal oftime doing all that I could to prove it wrong, to show that we do not need such things to live ourlives. There came a point in my life when I realized I was wrong and the real truth of God's word came to me. Many will not understand this and I am sure you are one of those that will not understand this. There was a point in my life where I opened my mind and my heart and that is when the real truth of who God is came to light. I question everyday, and I find answers everyday. Id some says they never question what they believe, I can most assuredly say that they are lying. If we do not question we cannot know.

Are you a slave to your God belief?

We are all slaves to what we believe. What we believe has direct consequences on how we live our lives. This is not a unique characteristic to Christians but a universal truth for all people. I can honestly say though that I was once a slave to sin, I indulged in things that were not conducive to a good life, I held on my shoulders the weight of my past for years and years. I am no longer a slave to those desries nor burdend by the wieght of my past. I have been set free and am a bondservant to Christ. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His Grace" (Ephesians 1:7) I turned over my life to Him and will continue to do my humble best to walk the Earth as He walked. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control," (Galatians 5:22-23) Lastly I no longer have to carry the weight on my past " Come to me all those that are burdened and heavy laden and I will give your rest. Take My yolk upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yolk is easy and My burden is light." (Matthew 11:28-30)

These are the truths that I see and I live with. These are the truths that I do question daily. The question is are you a slave to your beliefs, or do you question boldly with an open mind, or more importantly and open heart?

but uniformed and fearful people in the Dark Ages."

Actually many of these people were well informed and educated. They were a lot more intelligent than we give them credit for. it is on our own arrogance that we write them of as ignorant.

But reason, logic and science has given me a much more factual way to deal with the issues we face during our short lives.

Interesting that these are the saemreasons that I believe in God.

In my successful business years I have not seen any sign that religion makes anyone more trustworthy or moral.

This is truly sad, perhaps you never came across anyone who truly walked the walk and talked the talk. I can attest in my life that I have met many people that do just that and yes there are many who do not. That however does not negate the fact that being a Christian which is the only view I can come from does not make one more accountable to their actions. My wise wife once said that there are to many Christians and not enough disciples and I am afraid she is very right in her assumptions.

I see bad and good things happen to everyone around me and there is always clear and reasonable reasons..

I see the same things yet in each and every event I see hope. It is that hope, that promise of things to come tat makes it all bearable. For without faith or hope what do we have? We have despaired and discouragement. I have seen the lowest of lows and the highest of highs. I have seen those in total despair raised up by the hope that God gives us. I have seen faith move mountains in cases that seem hopeless. I often think on the past life I lived whiteoutthat hope or faith and it saddens me, but it also encourages me to know that I have grown and learned form those experiences and it makes my faith even stronger.

I am not a slave to my beliefs.....my eyes are open and waiting for a glimpse of any truths that are presented!

MY feeling is until someone can make any sense of religious speculation.....all of you are wrong.

But you are a slave, because you claim to have open eyes yet are absolutely sure you are right and they are wrong. As I had said before I was where you are and am thankful for that experience, but until you join an open mind withan open heart both shall always remain closed.

Do you realize if you were born in the Middle East, the odds you would be Muslim are overwhelming!

If i was born a RockefellerI would be rich, the problem with"what ifs" is that they really contribute nothing to the discussion. I have friends that were born in the Middle East and they are Christians. I have friends that were born in the USA and they are Muslim. I was born into a family that had no religion was an Athiest for 47 years and am now a Christian, the odds of that were ovewhleming and yet here I am.

We have obviously come to an impasse I know from experience that oncee we reach the point of yelling ( as evident by the bold face type) and name calling that this discussion has come to a conclusion and that is ok. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope in some small way that this exchange of thoughts has been helpful. It is always a help to me in learnng what others think and believe. I look forward to future exchanges of ideas and philosophies.

And I also notice the most sincere followers do seem very enslaved by their chosen God...... no matter which religion they have chosen.

Indeed! It's like they want to be slaves. Go figure!

I take that to mean "jerking the stings that control us!"

They usually call it: "God's will/plan."

I have never said there is no God......just no evidence of the God men worship!

That's ok. I'll go ahead and say there is no god/s based on the lack of supporting evidence. So far, no one has ever been able to produce any evidence whatsoever.

I just don't understand why you can't accept that you might be wrong?

Most believers, especially fundamentalists, won't even consider the possibility that their beliefs might be wrong or erroneous.