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TRYUSINGLOGIC

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The problem with belief......

Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:00 PM EDT
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By TryUsingLogic
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I am Agnostic and believe that freedom of belief is essential for the success of liberal democracy, liberty and freedom.  A concern of mine has always been the partnership of all competing religions standing together to demonize the people who are enlightened and do not accept supernatural faiths.   After all, the religious are compassionate, turn the other cheek and love their enemies as they do themselves….right?  I don’t think so…at least from what I see.  My concern for the religious is that they are wrong and being bilked in numerous ways by the powers that control them.  They should be more open to their beliefs being wrong, because they don’t have to worry about being sent to hell and should be much more concerned about the scam they are funding while alive.  I do believe we should always have the freedom to follow chosen faiths, and hope with time religious believers will find enlightenment to the truths presented by reality and science.

Here is the problem.  All religions are constructed by men to necessarily condemn the non-believers and join together to assure punishment now and after death to the godless ones.  Religions that don’t respect or trust one another are bound together by mutually fearing  non-believers,  because it threatens their supernatural faith based beliefs by suggesting they should actually question their own God.    What better thing could religions do than turn the other cheek and offer understanding and acceptance to the poor non-believers?   What would Jesus do?  Even though Christianity thinks Islam is evil..and vice-versa, they will stand together as “Brothers in Faith Belief” to condemn the non-believer.   The non-believers I know are much more honest and gracious than that.   Non-believers do openly fight back because the arrogance of religion is unbearable and very judgmental from those who specifically say “thou shalt not judge!”

What really gets me, is that any religion that truly believes their scriptures, should easily find the strength and comfort to not worry one second about the effects of non-belief.  They should respect the freedom of Agnostics and Atheists while looking forward to bliss in heaven without them.

There is nothing more convoluted than a faith based religion defending a clearly questionable belief.  It is the reason religions will always fight each other…..while joining together to condemn the godless ones!

If there is a God…..It surely will be very angry that no one knew who It is and what It wants…or maybe It just doesn’t care?

TryUsingLogic

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TryUsingLogic

If I'm wrong....I'm going to hell with 9,999 of the religions that got it wrong. If religions are wrong, they have wasted their precious time on Earth being scammed by themiddle men of fictiothe biggest ponzi scheme of all time!

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:03 PM EDT
Grisham

What really gets me, is that any religion that truly believes their scriptures, should easily find the strength and comfort to not worry one second about the effects of non-belief. They should respect the freedom of Agnostics and Atheists while looking forward to bliss in heaven without them.

Maybe so. But no one likes having their traditions and faith trashed. There's a big difference between having a civilized debate on religion and demeaning someone.

I'm an agnostic too. To me that means I don't know. I try not to belittle others if they have faith in whatever religion and like you, hold freedom of religion (or lack of religion) to be a fundamental right.

Good article, Logic.

    Reply#2 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:20 AM EDT
    TryUsingLogic

    Thanks Grisham, I agree that no one likes their beliefs trashed. It is a two way street though, and and most non believers are frustrated by all the conflicted believers that gang up on them as evil. I don't care what one believes in, but religions don't operate like that.....they are possesed by the need to cure or demonize anyone who does not agree with their dogma. Much in the same way that Dictators must kill beliefs to enforce their living godly dominance. I say believe in your gods, but respect the idea that you could be wrong. It is really about better education, respect and time....not the poker game about gods!

    Debate is good, but the big problem is that questioning any existence of God is not civilized to any religion.

    None of us know if a God exists.....and that is the key to the religion mess.

      #2.1 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:12 AM EDT
      Grisham

      It is a two way street though, and and most non believers are frustrated by all the conflicted believers that gang up on them as evil.

      Just speaking from personal experience (my opinion only) I find that the 'gang up as evil' statement may hold true in 'real life'. I've yet to have an atheist knock on my door and tell me I might go to hell unless I believe as they do. However, here on the Vine, I find atheists to be the aggressors. Not all of them, but quite a few.

      Debate is good, but the big problem is that questioning any existence of God is not civilized to any religion

      I don't really agree. I've had good debates with religous people here on the Vine and in real life. I think it just depends on how you go about it in most cases. If I tell them that their belief is the same as believing in a spaghetti monster and Jesus is akin to a noodly appendage, I think that's basically calling their intelligence into question and they get their back up. I could say the same thing in a more respectful manner and get my point across without resorting to demeaning them.

      I don't think all atheists or agnostics on the Vine are militant either.

        #2.2 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:15 PM EDT
        TryUsingLogic

        Grisham....

        For most of my life, even though not really religious, I use to go along with the believers that Atheists were undesirables and low life's. It was mostly because I was afraid to question religion because it wasn't the PC thing to do. I realize there are militant Atheists out there but many of the most compassionate people I have met in my life were not at all religious and reject supernatural gods. I think the antagonism towards non-believers has caused many of them to be very defensive but not at all like what I was taught they were from the pious religious perspective. A Christian will give more slack to Islam, or Buddism than Atheism and I don't think that is fair or makes any real world sense. Religions do stand together in defiance of non-belief and that in itself should raise a lot of red flags!

        I enjoy your good points and conversation...thanks!

        TryUsingLogic

          #2.3 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:36 PM EDT
          Grisham

          For most of my life, even though not really religious, I use to go along with the believers that Atheists were undesirables and low life's. It was mostly because I was afraid to question religion because it wasn't the PC thing to do.

          I get the feeling from conversations I've had online that there are more militant religous zealots in the US than where I live in Canada. In Canada, religion plays a very minor role in society for the most part.

          I realize there are militant Atheists out there but many of the most compassionate people I have met in my life were not at all religious and reject supernatural gods.

          I agree. I don't think it takes religion to make someone compassionate.

          I enjoy your good points and conversation...thanks!

          Same. Religion is one of my favorite topics. FR sent. :)

            #2.4 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:55 PM EDT
            Reply
            ndeepnow

            2 timothy 2:22-26 -- Jesus tells us not to fight with other, but to put no gods before him. Do Christians make mistakes? All the time, but not because of the words of JESUS but because the flesh of man and the evil temptations

            22Now (AY)flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, (AZ)faith, love and peace, with those who (BA)call on the Lord (BB)from a pure heart.

            23But refuse foolish and ignorant (BC)speculations, knowing that they (BD)produce quarrels.

            24(BE)The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, (BF)able to teach, patient when wronged,

            25(BG)with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, (BH)if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to (BI)the knowledge of the truth,

            26and they may come to their senses and escape from (BJ)the snare of the devil, having been (BK)held captive by him to do his will.

              Reply#3 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:27 AM EDT
              TryUsingLogic

              ndeepnow.....

              Could it be that the power of Jesus does not measure up to the scriptures written by men?

              Using scripture to answer questions about reason, truth and respect never works in the real world.

              So it goes on...and on....and on!

              • 1 vote
              #3.1 - Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:10 AM EDT
              ndeepnow

              1 John 2:15-17

              Do Not Love the World

              15Do not love (AO)the world nor the things in the world (AP)If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

              16For all that is in the world, (AQ)the lust of the flesh and (AR)the lust of the eyes and (AS)the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

              17(AT)The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who (AU)does the will of God lives forever.

                #3.2 - Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
                TryUsingLogic

                John 2011:26

                Do not spout scripture and deny earthly truths.

                  #3.3 - Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:46 PM EDT
                  ndeepnow

                  Do not spout earthly truths and deny scripture

                    #3.4 - Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:37 AM EDT
                    Reply
                    TryUsingLogic

                    ndeepnow....

                    You are the prefect example of why I wrote this article....

                    You make no sense and arrogantly ramble on in obvious delusion based on fundamentalism.

                    I have some good news for you....if you have picked the wrong God or Scripture, there is no hell you will have to suffer in for eternity!

                    Your foolishness deserves no more comment from me.....

                      Reply#4 - Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:34 AM EDT
                      ndeepnow

                      I know but if you have picked the wrong one it is a hell waiting on you. You have a nice day and may the lord Jesus Christ Bless you and your family

                        #4.1 - Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:19 PM EDT
                        TryUsingLogic

                        If I made the wrong choice I will know....If you made the wrong choice, you will turn to dust like the rest of us at the exspense of scamming mankind with the worst ponzi scheme ever!

                        Also, If Allah is God, you will go to Hell anyway! Your chance of Heaven is 1 in 10,000 religions.

                        I feel confident I have no chance of going to Hell, since there is no evidence of one.

                        If the Lord Jesus Christ is blessing anything on this planet at this moment in time....Heaven help us!

                        If God exists, It isn't Jesus...or any man created God....and may the real God forgive you and your family for being mistaken in your foolishness!

                          #4.2 - Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:38 PM EDT
                          ndeepnow

                          2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning Hispromise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[b] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

                          Jesus is suffering right now with us, but he is waiting on all that WILL BE SAVED to be SAVED. If he ended the world the day after his resurrection it wouldn't be to many in heaven.

                          See that's the difference Jesus tells you these things and why it is the way it is. That's because he is all knowing

                            #4.3 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:46 AM EDT
                            Reply
                            TryUsingLogic

                            What is so sad is that ndeepnow and others blindly believe and arrogantly promote the writings by men who would like to think they have found the one true God out of a choice of thousands.

                            No one has won the God lottery yet. The biggest ponzi scheme of all time is the selling of gods!

                              Reply#5 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:53 PM EDT
                              ndeepnow

                              What so sad is that some blindly believe man who has an agenda .. science, nature, this and that

                                #5.1 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:12 PM EDT
                                TryUsingLogic

                                Nothing on earth has a bigger agenda than a supernatural god......

                                  #5.2 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:25 PM EDT
                                  ndeepnow

                                  What does this supernatural god GAIN?

                                    #5.3 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:33 PM EDT
                                    TryUsingLogic

                                    Nothing, because It doesn't exist! If it did exist it would gain the thrill of sending all of us to hell that did not kiss up and bow to It!

                                    That one quality sort of destroys the idea of a compassionate loving God...right?

                                      #5.4 - Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:20 PM EDT
                                      ndeepnow

                                      You don't have to bow to JESUS in public.

                                        #5.5 - Sun May 1, 2011 12:29 AM EDT
                                        TryUsingLogic

                                        Spin it how you want!.......You have to surrender your life and soul to Jesus to qualify for salvation. It would be better for mankind it you would do it privately and stop selling it like an Amway pyramid product!

                                          #5.6 - Sun May 1, 2011 8:47 AM EDT
                                          ndeepnow

                                          Jesus tells us to be the light of the world, but I see the problem " Surrender Your Life " that scares you because the devil tells you that your life will be terrible, people will make fun of you, you will become one of those bible thumpers.

                                          It does take courage to walk in the light, but once you accept you realize it is green grass on the other side. The water is warm. jump right in.

                                          Nothing to fear but fear its self.

                                            #5.7 - Sun May 1, 2011 9:53 AM EDT
                                            ndeepnow

                                            Matthew 6:1-24

                                            1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men (A)to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

                                            2"So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they (B)may be honored by men (C)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

                                            3"But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

                                            4so that your giving will be in secret; and (D)your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

                                            5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to (E)stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners (F)so that they may be seen by men (G)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

                                            6"But you, when you pray, (H)go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and (I)your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

                                            7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their (J)many words.

                                            8"So do not be like them; for (K)your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

                                            9"(L)Pray, then, in this way:
                                            'Our Father who is in heaven,
                                            Hallowed be Your name.
                                            10'(M)Your kingdom come
                                            (N)Your will be done,
                                            On earth as it is in heaven.
                                            11'(O)Give us this day our daily bread.
                                            12'And (P)forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
                                            13'And do not lead us into temptation, but (Q)deliver us from (R)evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'

                                            14"(S)For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

                                            15"But (T)if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

                                            Fasting; The True Treasure; Wealth (Mammon)

                                            16"(U)Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting (V)Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

                                            17"But you, when you fast, (W)anoint your head and wash your face

                                            18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your (X)Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

                                            19"(Y)Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

                                            20"But store up for yourselves (Z)treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;

                                            21for (AA)where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

                                            22"(AB)The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.

                                            23"But if (AC)your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

                                            24"(AD)No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and [a](AE)wealth.

                                              #5.8 - Sun May 1, 2011 10:25 AM EDT
                                              TryUsingLogic

                                              Surrendering my conscience to myths, lies and fairy tales, as you have done, is far more frightening than facing the realities and problems of life. Using supernatural gods as a crutch is no great virtue.

                                              Man made religions have created God and Satan (You say there is only one God but always speak of two) and they only exist in your fear. I have have nothing to fear from the truth, but you should fear the fact that you are wasting precious time on Earth planning for a salvation you will never receive. You should feel guilty now that you are participating in the world's great scam...religion!

                                              It is fear that drives you to be gullible.

                                                #5.9 - Sun May 1, 2011 10:26 AM EDT
                                                ndeepnow

                                                I speak of the only GOD JESUS CHRIST the one who died for your sins.

                                                Again you said " !.......You have to surrender your life and soul to Jesus to qualify for salvation "

                                                  #5.10 - Sun May 1, 2011 11:14 AM EDT
                                                  Reply
                                                  TryUsingLogic

                                                  I speak of the only GOD JESUS CHRIST the one who died for your sins.

                                                  You speak of a mythical God created to comfort your fears.

                                                  It seems like the followers of Jesus spend more time worrying about the fate of the non-believers than they do worrying about their own deception.

                                                  You should spend more time weeding out the "gone-a-stray""failures in your churches and less time trying to convert those of us comfortable with the truths of the natural world.

                                                    Reply#6 - Sun May 1, 2011 12:02 PM EDT
                                                    ndeepnow

                                                    I'm not trying to covert you. All I'm doing is giving his word. That's between you and JESUS.

                                                    Look at your post and title. You jumped out there screaming. Don't push your beliefs on me and others, but since you did I just thought I would set the story straight

                                                      #6.1 - Sun May 1, 2011 12:36 PM EDT
                                                      Reply
                                                      TryUsingLogic

                                                      You jumped out there screaming

                                                      I f you would be honest with your self, I did not jump out there screaming.

                                                      All of your comments clearly define the issue I wrote about is real, and no matter how it is discussed, one's like you will blame non-believers and condemn them for not joining "The Brotherhood of Faith Belief!"

                                                      I am simply asking you to use your brain.....instead of your fear of God....to talk about it.

                                                      Will you admit that you could be wrong about Jesus? If you can't, this has been a useless conversation. I have been sold Jesus for 68 years and find nothing to it.....but I admit I could be wrong.......

                                                        Reply#7 - Sun May 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT
                                                        ndeepnow

                                                        Nope Jesus is not wrong .. He is the TRUTH, the WAY, and the LIFE .. John 14:6

                                                          #7.1 - Sun May 1, 2011 3:10 PM EDT
                                                          TryUsingLogic

                                                          Nope Jesus is not wrong .. He is the TRUTH, the WAY, and the LIFE .. John 14:6

                                                          That is why every religion is called "blind Faith."

                                                          You have been a terrific example of the problem I was writing about....

                                                          Thanks for joining in

                                                            #7.2 - Sun May 1, 2011 6:58 PM EDT
                                                            ndeepnow

                                                            With all the scripture i give you that's not blind faith. You are living in blind faith my firend

                                                              #7.3 - Sun May 1, 2011 8:28 PM EDT
                                                              TryUsingLogic

                                                              There is nothing more convoluted and tiresome than a faith based religion defending a clearly questionable belief. It is the reason religions will always fight each other…..while joining together to condemn the godless ones!

                                                                #7.4 - Sun May 1, 2011 9:05 PM EDT
                                                                ndeepnow

                                                                I stand with JESUS CHRIST

                                                                  #7.5 - Sun May 1, 2011 9:37 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply
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